Discussion:
Does QML have a future now that we have Tizen?
Mark
2011-09-28 11:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I was surprised to see the news about meego going to "merge" in Tizen along
with LiMo.
However, Tizen seems to be fully HTML 5 orientated with apps. MeeGo was QML
orientated and that was (if memory serves me well) the number one reason for
QML to exist.

So now we have the situation where we have an awesome new language: QML and
i started to like it more and more but i really wonder what's the future
holds for QML.
It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).

Can anyone clear some light on the future direction of QML?
I for one started to like it specially when only used for declaring the UI
and doing all app logic in C++/Qt.
I honestly do hope it still has a future.

Kind regards,
Mark
Artur Souza (MoRpHeUz)
2011-09-28 12:42:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Mark <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I honestly do hope it still has a future.

Besides being really great that companies use Qt in their projects,
the Qt Project's future is not bound to the success of this or that
company.

So, you can rely that QML has a good future inside the Qt Project :)

Cheers!

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Artur Duque de Souza
openBossa
INdT - Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia
-------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://blog.morpheuz.cc
PGP: 0xDBEEAAC3 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net
-------------------------------------------------------
l***@nokia.com
2011-09-28 13:07:31 UTC
Permalink
I can't comment about what Intel and others are planning with Tizen (I
don't know). You should go and ask them about it. It's somewhat offtopic
on this list.

MeeGo was certainly not the number 1 reason for QML to exist, MeeGo simply
happened to use it. We'll continue to develop Qt and QML as before, and I
personally do believe there's a great future for what we're doing.

Cheers,
Lars

On 9/28/11 1:39 PM, "ext Mark" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>I was surprised to see the news about meego going to "merge" in Tizen
>along with LiMo.
>However, Tizen seems to be fully HTML 5 orientated with apps. MeeGo was
>QML orientated and that was (if memory serves me well) the number one
>reason for QML to exist.
>
>So now we have the situation where we have an awesome new language: QML
>and i started to like it more and more but i really wonder what's the
>future holds for QML.
>It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).
>
>Can anyone clear some light on the future direction of QML?
>I for one started to like it specially when only used for declaring the
>UI and doing all app logic in C++/Qt.
>I honestly do hope it still has a future.
>
>Kind regards,
>Mark
>_______________________________________________
>Qt5-feedback mailing list
>Qt5-***@qt.nokia.com
>http://lists.qt.nokia.com/mailman/listinfo/qt5-feedback
qtnext
2011-09-28 14:41:07 UTC
Permalink
a little bit disappointed to see that now meego is out of Qt strategy
... just read Qt slide for Qt developer a year ago pushing Symbian and
Meego, Qt everywhere ... blabla ... and where we are now !

another sad day for Qt !



Le 28/09/2011 15:07, ***@nokia.com a écrit :
> I can't comment about what Intel and others are planning with Tizen (I
> don't know). You should go and ask them about it. It's somewhat offtopic
> on this list.
>
> MeeGo was certainly not the number 1 reason for QML to exist, MeeGo simply
> happened to use it. We'll continue to develop Qt and QML as before, and I
> personally do believe there's a great future for what we're doing.
>
> Cheers,
> Lars
>
> On 9/28/11 1:39 PM, "ext Mark"<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I was surprised to see the news about meego going to "merge" in Tizen
>> along with LiMo.
>> However, Tizen seems to be fully HTML 5 orientated with apps. MeeGo was
>> QML orientated and that was (if memory serves me well) the number one
>> reason for QML to exist.
>>
>> So now we have the situation where we have an awesome new language: QML
>> and i started to like it more and more but i really wonder what's the
>> future holds for QML.
>> It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).
>>
>> Can anyone clear some light on the future direction of QML?
>> I for one started to like it specially when only used for declaring the
>> UI and doing all app logic in C++/Qt.
>> I honestly do hope it still has a future.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Mark
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qt5-feedback mailing list
>> Qt5-***@qt.nokia.com
>> http://lists.qt.nokia.com/mailman/listinfo/qt5-feedback
> _______________________________________________
> Qt5-feedback mailing list
> Qt5-***@qt.nokia.com
> http://lists.qt.nokia.com/mailman/listinfo/qt5-feedback
v***@nokia.com
2011-09-28 15:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Mark wrote:
> It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).

I don't know where the impression comes from that MeeGo, or any particular platform in fact, would have been the primary goal of QML. Sure, it was nice to see that Qt and QML was for a while a core piece in what might have become a successful mobile platform. But fact is that people have been building many devices with Linux, Qt and increasingly Qt Quick for years, without waiting for MeeGo.

Qt, QtQuick and QML are for developers, and the primary goal is and will be to make it easier for developers to create awesome product. The worst thing we as developers can do is to wait for some "Technical Steering Group" a'la Tizen and LiMo to create a platform that is relevant for us, and even solves (some of) our problems for us. Build products with technologies that exist today to solve the problems that you have today. And from that perspective, Qt and Linux have been beating any HTML5-based technology for years.

Volker
Mark
2011-09-28 19:50:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:07 PM, <***@nokia.com> wrote:

> Mark wrote:
> > It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).
>
> I don't know where the impression comes from that MeeGo, or any particular
> platform in fact, would have been the primary goal of QML. Sure, it was nice
> to see that Qt and QML was for a while a core piece in what might have
> become a successful mobile platform. But fact is that people have been
> building many devices with Linux, Qt and increasingly Qt Quick for years,
> without waiting for MeeGo.
>
> Qt, QtQuick and QML are for developers, and the primary goal is and will be
> to make it easier for developers to create awesome product. The worst thing
> we as developers can do is to wait for some "Technical Steering Group" a'la
> Tizen and LiMo to create a platform that is relevant for us, and even solves
> (some of) our problems for us. Build products with technologies that exist
> today to solve the problems that you have today. And from that perspective,
> Qt and Linux have been beating any HTML5-based technology for years.
>
> Volker
>
> That impression comes from the fact that the Qt folks repeatedly promoted
QML as "the" thing to use for mobile development. And it "could" be used for
the desktop but that wasn't the aim of it. Or that's the impression Qt folks
gave me.

Another thing is the compilation step. It's non existent in pure QML apps
and that was promoted for mobile use as well since now there was no need to
compile in slow environments. All things the Qt folks said created a mindset
for me (and probably a lot of others as well) that QML was for Mobile usage
and desktop usage was just not much of a topic. Just look at the blogs in Qt
labs that mention QML for the desktop. There are some but the vast majority
is, yet again, aimed at mobile stuff.

So that's where my impression came from and that's why i'm asking about the
future of QML since for me (in my mindset) all the promotion of QML along
with Mobile usage is just not a case anymore.

Please don't take this wrong. It's certainly not meant to be.
Charley Bay
2011-09-28 20:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Volker spaketh:

> Qt, QtQuick and QML are for developers, and the primary goal is and will be
>> to make it easier for developers to create awesome product. The worst thing
>> we as developers can do is to wait for some "Technical Steering Group" a'la
>> Tizen and LiMo to create a platform that is relevant for us, and even solves
>> (some of) our problems for us. Build products with technologies that exist
>> today to solve the problems that you have today. And from that perspective,
>> Qt and Linux have been beating any HTML5-based technology for years.
>>
>
I agree in the sense that most "standards" are "Design-By-Committee Messes"
that rarely live up to expectations. I also agree with Torvalds that
"successful standards" are merely ubiquitous convention that have been so
successful that they have merely been around long enough to have been
proven-and-adopted (without coercion), and which are merely (later)
"formalized" into a "standard" (of what people were already doing).

In that sense, QML does not need a "standard", nor a "standard's group".
Its success in the marketplace will merely suggest some future social
ritual would "formalize" it into some "standard", and in the meantime
projects would merely adopt it directly because it proved useful. (I
honestly expect this to be the case.)

Mark respondeth:

> <snip, Why impression that QML was mostly for "mobile"?>
>
> That impression comes from the fact that the Qt folks repeatedly promoted
> QML as "the" thing to use for mobile development. And it "could" be used for
> the desktop but that wasn't the aim of it. Or that's the impression Qt folks
> gave me.
>
> Another thing is the compilation step. It's non existent in pure QML apps
> and that was promoted for mobile use as well since now there was no need to
> compile in slow environments. <snip>,
>
> So that's where my impression came from and that's why i'm asking about the
> future of QML since for me (in my mindset) all the promotion of QML along
> with Mobile usage is just not a case anymore. <snip>
>

Not to prolong a QML speculation thread, (but I don't know where else this
topic should be otherwise considered), IMHO there is a strong
mis-understanding as to what *is* QML. It pains me that Nokia&TheTrolls
seem to have not yet "come into their own" on a consistent and sensible
message. (I assert neither is shown thus far.)

In a nutshell: QML is a technology that exposes GUI development through
declaratively-bound-properties-on-objects. It re-invents usage of
screen-real-estate, in opposition to historical GUI development of
"parent/child" division through layouts and nesting. The result enables
better support for multi-touch, animation, richer data-density interfaces,
and declarative approaches that remove the historic
"imperative-update/repaint()" problems. Applications take less code, for
better features, with fewer bugs/errors, with (far) greater development
speed-and-ease by separating GUI development iteration from the business
logic maintenance of properties exposure.

Parallels for "bound-properties-on-objects" (away from historical imperative
programmatic "updates") can be seen in Google's Android, Apple's iOS, and
Microsoft's WPF. Declarative "bound properties" are *the* future, as
asynchronous events in threaded GUIs do not lend themselves well to
imperative approaches. However, IMHO, QML offers the best approach of these
technologies (e.g., it's "best-of-breed").

I speak with no authority (I don't work for any of the companies above), but
this is my impression, and I'm a heavy-desktop-developer with advanced
scientific GUI demands (e.g., large-and-rich interfaces, with little
interest in Mobile). I concede that "more users" would be generally "good"
for QML, but don't specifically fret over the loss of a given user
(especially at this "early-stage").

More specifically, when you review the "alternatives" (look at the abject
terror in the .NET developer world after Microsoft's recent statements about
the "future" of HTML5/Javascript for Win8), IMHO QML is an "easy" pick over
the alternatives, albeit we are in the very "early" stages of industry
adoption.

However, I'll agree with Mark's assertions that previous QML references
emphasized mobile. This is partly understandable (QML re-invented screen
real-estate and event usage, which is critical for mobile), but I agree with
Mark that we'd like to hear more about desktop widget approaches and build
systems/packaging. (If there's a "real" plan, direction, or "best
practices" for things like these, it would be nice to bring that more
"front-and-center", although I concede it's a new paradigm and those may not
yet be sufficiently well understood even by Nokia&TheTrolls.)

Specifically, IMHO, the Meego anouncement doesn't really matter much, but
what *does* matter is that Nokia&TheTrolls need:

(1) A sensible and consistent message regarding *what is* QML and its future
use
(2) A strong-and-successful Qt5/QML launch with accompanying articulation of
this message

...and a strong and ever-maturing QtCreator (QML/C++) is a great additional
step (nice work-and-progress seen on this recently).

--charley
v***@nokia.com
2011-10-05 08:59:09 UTC
Permalink
(apologies for top-posting from my phone)

The original question was whether QML has a future now that MeeGo is gone and replaced with Tizen and HTML5. My point is that QML, as a technology that fills a gap in Qt that is most noticeable in the mobile space, doesn't depend on a particular mobile platform, and that there are plenty of examples where it has helped delivering great products, without MeeGo.

Point taken wrt positioning of QML. Work on more desktop centric stuff and research into respective use cases is work in progress. But for the moment we know most about mobile and touch-based user interfaces because that's where we had a problem to solve, and where we have validated the solution most comprehensively. So that's what we can talk about with confidence.

Technically, Charley's text in this threat is probably some of the most accurate positioning I've seen on the topic of what QML is, and he's also right in assuming that even we The Trolls don't know enough about desktop usage to give high-quality guidance.

Volker

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Mark
Sent: 28.09.2011, 21:50
To: Hilsheimer Volker (Nokia-MP-Qt/Oslo)
Cc: qt5-***@qt.nokia.com
Subject: Re: [Qt5-feedback] Does QML have a future now that we have Tizen?


On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:07 PM, <***@nokia.com<mailto:***@nokia.com>> wrote:
Mark wrote:
> It's primary goal is just gone (Tizen is HTML 5, not QML).

I don't know where the impression comes from that MeeGo, or any particular platform in fact, would have been the primary goal of QML. Sure, it was nice to see that Qt and QML was for a while a core piece in what might have become a successful mobile platform. But fact is that people have been building many devices with Linux, Qt and increasingly Qt Quick for years, without waiting for MeeGo.

Qt, QtQuick and QML are for developers, and the primary goal is and will be to make it easier for developers to create awesome product. The worst thing we as developers can do is to wait for some "Technical Steering Group" a'la Tizen and LiMo to create a platform that is relevant for us, and even solves (some of) our problems for us. Build products with technologies that exist today to solve the problems that you have today. And from that perspective, Qt and Linux have been beating any HTML5-based technology for years.

Volker

That impression comes from the fact that the Qt folks repeatedly promoted QML as "the" thing to use for mobile development. And it "could" be used for the desktop but that wasn't the aim of it. Or that's the impression Qt folks gave me.

Another thing is the compilation step. It's non existent in pure QML apps and that was promoted for mobile use as well since now there was no need to compile in slow environments. All things the Qt folks said created a mindset for me (and probably a lot of others as well) that QML was for Mobile usage and desktop usage was just not much of a topic. Just look at the blogs in Qt labs that mention QML for the desktop. There are some but the vast majority is, yet again, aimed at mobile stuff.

So that's where my impression came from and that's why i'm asking about the future of QML since for me (in my mindset) all the promotion of QML along with Mobile usage is just not a case anymore.

Please don't take this wrong. It's certainly not meant to be.
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